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	<title>Comments on: Haidt&#8217;s Final Response to Pigliucci</title>
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	<link>http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/2011/02/haidts-final-response-to-pigliucci/</link>
	<description>Moral Psychology Findings and Discussion</description>
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		<title>By: Mack</title>
		<link>http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/2011/02/haidts-final-response-to-pigliucci/comment-page-1/#comment-6051</link>
		<dc:creator>Mack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Mar 2013 23:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/?p=352#comment-6051</guid>
		<description>Prof Haidt - do you think that moral propositions can be true or false? If yes, could it not be the case that the moral propositions that underpin some conservative claims are false? Could this not be a partial explanation for the lack of conservatives in a field which studies human behaviour? Wouldn&#039;t artificially increasing the number of conservatives in psychology amount to discarding the possibility that psychologists are liberal because liberal politics is truer than conservative politics, and psychologists may have a greater body of evidence to believe that liberal political views are more true than conservative political views, given the nature of their work? I actually think that there is a lot of merit in the idea of recognising and trying to limit the effects of the whole &#039;tribal-moral community&#039; (though I hate the terminology, frickin psychology, always trying to reduce socially conditioned behaviour to &#039;ah yes now I understand how the human brain works&#039;), and I think that there may be some power dynamics in social science academia which is restrictive. I just don&#039;t understand how you can reconcile being a moral realist and interfering in a scientific process which may just be filtering out good from bad politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof Haidt &#8211; do you think that moral propositions can be true or false? If yes, could it not be the case that the moral propositions that underpin some conservative claims are false? Could this not be a partial explanation for the lack of conservatives in a field which studies human behaviour? Wouldn&#8217;t artificially increasing the number of conservatives in psychology amount to discarding the possibility that psychologists are liberal because liberal politics is truer than conservative politics, and psychologists may have a greater body of evidence to believe that liberal political views are more true than conservative political views, given the nature of their work? I actually think that there is a lot of merit in the idea of recognising and trying to limit the effects of the whole &#8216;tribal-moral community&#8217; (though I hate the terminology, frickin psychology, always trying to reduce socially conditioned behaviour to &#8216;ah yes now I understand how the human brain works&#8217;), and I think that there may be some power dynamics in social science academia which is restrictive. I just don&#8217;t understand how you can reconcile being a moral realist and interfering in a scientific process which may just be filtering out good from bad politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Lynch</title>
		<link>http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/2011/02/haidts-final-response-to-pigliucci/comment-page-1/#comment-4240</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lynch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2012 02:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/?p=352#comment-4240</guid>
		<description>I just finished &quot;The Righteous Mind&quot;, and found much food for thought, there. In particular, I found Haidt&#039;s terms &quot;blind spot&quot; and &quot;sacralized areas&quot; to be particularly useful metaphors for the unquestioned assumptions that lie at the heart of any school, any study, or any argument.

For example, as someone who received a classical philosophical education, I can confirm from experience his claim that conservatives can understand liberal values but not vice versa.  I cannot tell you how many well-educated liberals I know who cannot name any consequences of The Enlightenment which might be considered undesirable, who think any idea more than 300 years old (or even 200 or 100 years old) must be wrong, or who assume that any idea for which they cannot find hard evidence is therefore false.

Professor Haidt has committed the unforgiveable sin in academia: of suggesting that limits on rationality and objectivity may also apply to working scientists. Prof. Pigliucci&#039;s defensiveness, evasiveness, condescension and refusal to take Haidt seriously are but the latest confirmation of the correctness of Haidt&#039;s insight about the &quot;sacred truths&quot; which must not be questioned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just finished &#8220;The Righteous Mind&#8221;, and found much food for thought, there. In particular, I found Haidt&#8217;s terms &#8220;blind spot&#8221; and &#8220;sacralized areas&#8221; to be particularly useful metaphors for the unquestioned assumptions that lie at the heart of any school, any study, or any argument.</p>
<p>For example, as someone who received a classical philosophical education, I can confirm from experience his claim that conservatives can understand liberal values but not vice versa.  I cannot tell you how many well-educated liberals I know who cannot name any consequences of The Enlightenment which might be considered undesirable, who think any idea more than 300 years old (or even 200 or 100 years old) must be wrong, or who assume that any idea for which they cannot find hard evidence is therefore false.</p>
<p>Professor Haidt has committed the unforgiveable sin in academia: of suggesting that limits on rationality and objectivity may also apply to working scientists. Prof. Pigliucci&#8217;s defensiveness, evasiveness, condescension and refusal to take Haidt seriously are but the latest confirmation of the correctness of Haidt&#8217;s insight about the &#8220;sacred truths&#8221; which must not be questioned.</p>
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		<title>By: Fjr</title>
		<link>http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/2011/02/haidts-final-response-to-pigliucci/comment-page-1/#comment-3975</link>
		<dc:creator>Fjr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 05:32:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/?p=352#comment-3975</guid>
		<description>This simply is not true. I would ask you to dfneed it without making “leaps”, but I know you won’t… because you can’t. Silence is always the best tact when asked to dfneed the indefensible. What part exactly do you find to be erroneous?  There are three points: 1) criminals are generally less intelligent 2) sociopaths are generally borderline retarded 3) the leap to the idea that there exists a form of moral intelligence.I hope you aren&#039;t objecting to the second point, because if you are then there&#039;s simply no need for further discussion.  Assuming you aren&#039;t, comparing rates of crime among populations to the intelligence of those populations indicates that lower intelligence populations have higher rates of crime.  To give just one specific statistic, Asian Americans commit crimes at one quarter the rate of White Americans, while African Americans and Latinos commit crimes in the range of 5   10 times that of White Americans.As for the leap, you&#039;re going to have to be more specific for me to answer that. This is not true either, furthermore, it’s scary.Here’s another question you won’t answer: why? Why does it matter? What will be the purpose of this superman society you envision? What will they set about to do with their near perfection having conquered those not intelligent enough to bow down to to the gullible aristocratic intelligentsia? Whether or not it&#039;s  scary&#039; is irrelevant, quite frankly.  I don&#039;t think it should be necessary for me to innumerate all of the reasons why I would think a more intelligent society would be better than a less intelligent society.  If you really aren&#039;t sure, stop and think about it from my perspective for a minute. You’re trying to put a square peg into a round hole. You might as well wonder how you can make a more moral car. This may be the case, but you haven&#039;t convinced me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This simply is not true. I would ask you to dfneed it without making “leaps”, but I know you won’t… because you can’t. Silence is always the best tact when asked to dfneed the indefensible. What part exactly do you find to be erroneous?  There are three points: 1) criminals are generally less intelligent 2) sociopaths are generally borderline retarded 3) the leap to the idea that there exists a form of moral intelligence.I hope you aren&#8217;t objecting to the second point, because if you are then there&#8217;s simply no need for further discussion.  Assuming you aren&#8217;t, comparing rates of crime among populations to the intelligence of those populations indicates that lower intelligence populations have higher rates of crime.  To give just one specific statistic, Asian Americans commit crimes at one quarter the rate of White Americans, while African Americans and Latinos commit crimes in the range of 5   10 times that of White Americans.As for the leap, you&#8217;re going to have to be more specific for me to answer that. This is not true either, furthermore, it’s scary.Here’s another question you won’t answer: why? Why does it matter? What will be the purpose of this superman society you envision? What will they set about to do with their near perfection having conquered those not intelligent enough to bow down to to the gullible aristocratic intelligentsia? Whether or not it&#8217;s  scary&#8217; is irrelevant, quite frankly.  I don&#8217;t think it should be necessary for me to innumerate all of the reasons why I would think a more intelligent society would be better than a less intelligent society.  If you really aren&#8217;t sure, stop and think about it from my perspective for a minute. You’re trying to put a square peg into a round hole. You might as well wonder how you can make a more moral car. This may be the case, but you haven&#8217;t convinced me.</p>
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		<title>By: DNW</title>
		<link>http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/2011/02/haidts-final-response-to-pigliucci/comment-page-1/#comment-3555</link>
		<dc:creator>DNW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/?p=352#comment-3555</guid>
		<description>&quot;In other words: he still won’t say whether he HAD watched my talk before writing his initial post.&quot;



The failure of Massimo Pigliucci to forthrightly produce the past perfect tense when he purported to rebut your assumption regarding his initial (non) viewing of your talk, might be assigned to his foreign birth, were it not for the fact that he has standing in the U.S. as a professional philosopher.

And for the fact that he has used it himself, e.g.: &quot;The New York Times’ John Tierney — who is usually a bit more discriminating in his columns than this — reports of a talk that Haidt had given.&quot;

Apparently then, Pigliucci is capable of clearly distinguishing tenses when he wishes to avoid any chance of a misconstrual. 

In the case of his reply to your request for a retraction , wherein you wrote,


&quot;Let me be certain that I have understood you. You did not watch my talk, even though a link to it was embedded ...&quot;

... he apparently didn&#039;t; as it would have undercut his attempt at a rhetorical flourish.  Instead he tried to wave away a nebulous admission with the remark that the actual talk &quot;simply doesn’t add much &quot;.

&quot;Doesn&#039;t&quot;, not didn&#039;t.

Rationally speaking, rather puerile.


Professor Haidt, I can&#039;t say that I am sympathetic toward your ultimate goal of promoting greater social cohesion as an end in itself through greater, and probably more empathetic understanding. The whole social &quot;complementarity&quot; predicate seems to elude me. Thus, to paraphrase someone well-known: &#039;Understanding (of the types of  human moral psychology) good , collectivism (solidarity pimping on behalf of the annoying) bad&#039;. [Joke]

But despite all that, it is clear even to this bigoted right-winger anarchist that you are by far and away the more ethically scrupulous one here, while Massimo Pigliucci comes off as, well, disingenuous.

Ah well, consider yourself fortunate that Richard Carrier has not as yet shown an interest in your work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In other words: he still won’t say whether he HAD watched my talk before writing his initial post.&#8221;</p>
<p>The failure of Massimo Pigliucci to forthrightly produce the past perfect tense when he purported to rebut your assumption regarding his initial (non) viewing of your talk, might be assigned to his foreign birth, were it not for the fact that he has standing in the U.S. as a professional philosopher.</p>
<p>And for the fact that he has used it himself, e.g.: &#8220;The New York Times’ John Tierney — who is usually a bit more discriminating in his columns than this — reports of a talk that Haidt had given.&#8221;</p>
<p>Apparently then, Pigliucci is capable of clearly distinguishing tenses when he wishes to avoid any chance of a misconstrual. </p>
<p>In the case of his reply to your request for a retraction , wherein you wrote,</p>
<p>&#8220;Let me be certain that I have understood you. You did not watch my talk, even though a link to it was embedded &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230; he apparently didn&#8217;t; as it would have undercut his attempt at a rhetorical flourish.  Instead he tried to wave away a nebulous admission with the remark that the actual talk &#8220;simply doesn’t add much &#8220;.</p>
<p>&#8220;Doesn&#8217;t&#8221;, not didn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Rationally speaking, rather puerile.</p>
<p>Professor Haidt, I can&#8217;t say that I am sympathetic toward your ultimate goal of promoting greater social cohesion as an end in itself through greater, and probably more empathetic understanding. The whole social &#8220;complementarity&#8221; predicate seems to elude me. Thus, to paraphrase someone well-known: &#8216;Understanding (of the types of  human moral psychology) good , collectivism (solidarity pimping on behalf of the annoying) bad&#8217;. [Joke]</p>
<p>But despite all that, it is clear even to this bigoted right-winger anarchist that you are by far and away the more ethically scrupulous one here, while Massimo Pigliucci comes off as, well, disingenuous.</p>
<p>Ah well, consider yourself fortunate that Richard Carrier has not as yet shown an interest in your work.</p>
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		<title>By: Sujay</title>
		<link>http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/2011/02/haidts-final-response-to-pigliucci/comment-page-1/#comment-2615</link>
		<dc:creator>Sujay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2011 03:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/?p=352#comment-2615</guid>
		<description>While I can see the point of view that both are making, I am inclined to agree with Haidt more on this one. Pigluicci is used to attacking people who are irrational, and he does not give much consideration to the arguments made by these people (and he shouldn&#039;t!). I think when he encountered Haidt&#039;s statement, he just dealt with it with a broad stroke, without understanding the finer nuances of Haidt&#039;s points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I can see the point of view that both are making, I am inclined to agree with Haidt more on this one. Pigluicci is used to attacking people who are irrational, and he does not give much consideration to the arguments made by these people (and he shouldn&#8217;t!). I think when he encountered Haidt&#8217;s statement, he just dealt with it with a broad stroke, without understanding the finer nuances of Haidt&#8217;s points.</p>
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		<title>By: rafael vivas</title>
		<link>http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/2011/02/haidts-final-response-to-pigliucci/comment-page-1/#comment-2227</link>
		<dc:creator>rafael vivas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/?p=352#comment-2227</guid>
		<description>Underepresentation may not be conclusive evidence of bias , it may however constitute a sign that a venomed bias has likely developed in those in the mayority against those in the minority whatever the casues of the latters underrepresentation . This relates to the often made observation  that people in an ingroup , moreover that people wielding the power that forming part of an overwhelming mayority carries , will as a matter of natural inclination often abuse that power to discriminate or persecute the views of the minority . Why so ?? because by sharing with many others a bias , a disdain for the minority, they feel superior to those they disparage , which makes them feel fatuously good about themselves. It all goes back to what is expressed by Lord Acton&#039;s famed dictum about how absolute power corrupts absolutely .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Underepresentation may not be conclusive evidence of bias , it may however constitute a sign that a venomed bias has likely developed in those in the mayority against those in the minority whatever the casues of the latters underrepresentation . This relates to the often made observation  that people in an ingroup , moreover that people wielding the power that forming part of an overwhelming mayority carries , will as a matter of natural inclination often abuse that power to discriminate or persecute the views of the minority . Why so ?? because by sharing with many others a bias , a disdain for the minority, they feel superior to those they disparage , which makes them feel fatuously good about themselves. It all goes back to what is expressed by Lord Acton&#8217;s famed dictum about how absolute power corrupts absolutely .</p>
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		<title>By: Ethan Watters</title>
		<link>http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/2011/02/haidts-final-response-to-pigliucci/comment-page-1/#comment-2215</link>
		<dc:creator>Ethan Watters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 May 2011 20:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/?p=352#comment-2215</guid>
		<description>This was a fascinating back and forth. So satisfying that Pigliucci stepped forward to illustrate Haidt&#039;s key point that those who challenge sacred beliefs of the in-group will be blindly attacked. Reading Pigliucci&#039;s first post there is no possibility that he had actually listened to the Haidt&#039;s orginal address.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was a fascinating back and forth. So satisfying that Pigliucci stepped forward to illustrate Haidt&#8217;s key point that those who challenge sacred beliefs of the in-group will be blindly attacked. Reading Pigliucci&#8217;s first post there is no possibility that he had actually listened to the Haidt&#8217;s orginal address.</p>
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		<title>By: SocraticGadfly</title>
		<link>http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/2011/02/haidts-final-response-to-pigliucci/comment-page-1/#comment-1459</link>
		<dc:creator>SocraticGadfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Feb 2011 18:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/?p=352#comment-1459</guid>
		<description>As I tweeted you, Prof. Haidt, I think your &quot;research&quot; had some severe limitations, starting with not addressing the issues if **conservative** bias in academia, through religious and other conservatives founding peer groups deliberately separated from their mainstream parallels, through conservatives refusing to attend mainstream universities in many degree programs, etc.

For instance, the Federalist Society, started as a deliberate counterpoint to the ABA. Since then, with explicitly conservative places like Liberty starting their own law schools, that drive has been augmented.

A religious conservative who thinks homosexuality is a sin is NOT going to join the APA, and is not going to go to a mainstream school for psychology study.

Much more here:
http://socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2011/02/academia-hotbed-of-liberal-bias-or.html 

Since I put up that post, I heard you on NPR&#039;s Talk of the Nation. I Tweeted the program that it should give someone like Pigliucci equal time in response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I tweeted you, Prof. Haidt, I think your &#8220;research&#8221; had some severe limitations, starting with not addressing the issues if **conservative** bias in academia, through religious and other conservatives founding peer groups deliberately separated from their mainstream parallels, through conservatives refusing to attend mainstream universities in many degree programs, etc.</p>
<p>For instance, the Federalist Society, started as a deliberate counterpoint to the ABA. Since then, with explicitly conservative places like Liberty starting their own law schools, that drive has been augmented.</p>
<p>A religious conservative who thinks homosexuality is a sin is NOT going to join the APA, and is not going to go to a mainstream school for psychology study.</p>
<p>Much more here:<br />
<a href="http://socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2011/02/academia-hotbed-of-liberal-bias-or.html" rel="nofollow">http://socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2011/02/academia-hotbed-of-liberal-bias-or.html</a> </p>
<p>Since I put up that post, I heard you on NPR&#8217;s Talk of the Nation. I Tweeted the program that it should give someone like Pigliucci equal time in response.</p>
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		<title>By: Two Tribes&#8230; &#171; Back Towards The Locus</title>
		<link>http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/2011/02/haidts-final-response-to-pigliucci/comment-page-1/#comment-1416</link>
		<dc:creator>Two Tribes&#8230; &#171; Back Towards The Locus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Feb 2011 14:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/?p=352#comment-1416</guid>
		<description>[...] a different note, Professor Haidt has been debating with Prof. Massimo Pigliucci here and here. Speaking of Pigliucci, could one argue that skeptics have formed a tribal-moral community? Haidt [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a different note, Professor Haidt has been debating with Prof. Massimo Pigliucci here and here. Speaking of Pigliucci, could one argue that skeptics have formed a tribal-moral community? Haidt [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/2011/02/haidts-final-response-to-pigliucci/comment-page-1/#comment-1402</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Feb 2011 19:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/?p=352#comment-1402</guid>
		<description>Maybe I could have put that more succinctly. Scientists at a scientific conference and creationists at a religious convention both make assumptions about whether or not evolution is true. Within those groups, those assumptions are unchallenged, and all reasoning at each gathering is done within the assumed framework.

This has no bearing on whether evolution or creationism is actually true. To point at biologists and note that their internal tribal dialogue all assumes the validity of evolution is a meaningless criticism in a world where belief in evolution is fully justified.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I could have put that more succinctly. Scientists at a scientific conference and creationists at a religious convention both make assumptions about whether or not evolution is true. Within those groups, those assumptions are unchallenged, and all reasoning at each gathering is done within the assumed framework.</p>
<p>This has no bearing on whether evolution or creationism is actually true. To point at biologists and note that their internal tribal dialogue all assumes the validity of evolution is a meaningless criticism in a world where belief in evolution is fully justified.</p>
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